Two Taffs in a Pod - Paul Andrew Williams

In this episode of Two Taffs in a Pod, Nick and Leighton are joined by writer, director and once upon a time actor, Paul Andrew Williams. Paul first met Nick on the set of Band of Brothers filming episode2 before moving into directing with his award winning film 'London to Brighton', followed by many more which included 'The Walk In' with Stephen Graham, 'Archie', 'Suspect' and just completed 'Faith' with James McAvoy and Erin Doherty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Good evening, Nick. Good evening, lights.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Good evening, everyone listening.

SPEAKER_04 0:05

And welcome to Two Tafts in a pod.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Tonight we've got a wonderful guest with an award-winning writer, director, once upon a time actor, Paul Andrew Williams, who's done some incredible work, which we can't wait to jump into later on. But first of all, Nick, what have we been doing? What have you been up to? Because you've had a pretty interesting dance card lately.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Oh yeah, the dance card's been pretty full fully marked lately. Um yeah, last week I had a nice cheeky four days in New York for the world premiere of Nola Holmes 3. That was quite fun. Um I saw it. Yeah, courtesy of the lovely Philip Barantini and Netflix. Um, it was great, it was a mad experience, as you can imagine. It was uh it was a yeah, felt like Cinderella.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I had to come I was gonna say, because I sent you a message when I saw saw your photos that popped up all over social media, like insane. And as I know that guy, you know, you're like, I know that guy, and you looked sharp. And like this is the question I've got. You looked, and I said this to you, you looked incredibly sharp. Who chose our outfit? Or, you know, did you have any input into that, or was this they just visualized it?

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Um it was all me. I put it together. Uh I did speak to a couple of stylists, but I just felt like I didn't really need to go down that route. Um I tell you what it was. There's a very so the jacket is not mine. The jacket, I borrowed it off of uh a very, very famous mycologist called Professor David Hawksworth, mycologist or mycology. I don't know if you know it, the study of fungi. Um, and he's probably the most famous world leading expert in fungus. Uh and they they live near me. Uh there are a couple. Pat Wiltshire, his wife, oh she's incredible. She's Welsh. She is uh she's a botanist, and for years the police used her for forensic work. Oh wow, wow. So she actually helped to catch um the stolen girl's murderer. Oh wow. What was his name? What was his name?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Ian some uh yeah, Ian um Huntley Huntley, Huntley.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Oh wow. So they they didn't have anything to go on and they reached out to her and she found a specific type of pollen. I mean, I'm I'm kind of generalizing a bit here. She found a specific type of pollen on his clothes and pinpointed it to the same field within within a five square meter radius of where the girls were found.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Wow, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

She's written loads of books. Uh Patricia Wiltshire, you must Google her, she's incredible. Um, so anyway, her husband David, I went to his 80th birthday party like the week before the premiere, and he had that jacket on, and I just was like, that is a cool jacket. And then for an 80-year-old. And I just said, Can I borrow it? So then I just built I built an outfit around that, basically. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

You look sharp, like you know, message you, what's that? You know, you looked sharp. I was like, Yeah, you were popping. And you look like you belonged as well. Do you know what I mean? Not saying that you know, in a negative way, but like you just you belonged on that stage with them all, you know, and it was just phenomenal to see. I was like, I know that guy.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Very kind, very kind.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

And then you look to your photos, you know, flying over to say first class, Netflix through your first class.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

I mean, I mean, it wasn't first, it was business, but still pretty good, isn't it? Yeah, that's amazing. But yeah, you know, um, we were staying in the plaza, which was quite fun. Oh wow, I couldn't find Macaulay Culkin though. Um, what have you been up to?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Uh saw Metallica the other week. In in uh in Cardiff, mate. That was incredible. You know, it was incredible, mate. It was absolutely incredible. You know, I've been I say been a big fan of them since the SM album with uh the use of an orchestra with with the songs. It was phenomenal. So to see them live, even though I had another opportunity five or six years ago, I it was such a quite short notice, I just couldn't do it. But I've been waiting a year for this, and then yeah, home city, which I'm sure you've been there yourself, it's incredible. And 76,000 Metallica fans, yeah, which is phenomenal. And then Silverstone on Friday.

SPEAKER_04 4:43

Oh, cool. Who supported Metallica?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Now you're asking me. I want to say the French American, I want to say but don't I can't remember. Didn't really go for them. Didn't really go for them.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

Okay, fair enough. Um, shall we uh shall we bring Paul in? Yeah, me and I can see you. Oh, Paul's here, everyone. Ladies and gentlemen, we've got Paul Andrew Williams with us. So uh Paul.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Is this live?

SPEAKER_04 5:10

This is live. We're recording.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

We just spoiled it. All right, I just want to know in case in case you swear. No, my kids are in the background going absolutely ballistic and screaming like lunatics.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

Like that's fine. I've got I've got I've got my dog eating biscuits next to me. Okay, I definitely eating the cat biscuits and he's making an L of a racket, so don't worry. But if you're hungry, yeah, yeah, he's just he's got FOMO because if the cat starts eating, he's got FOMO. I do right. Well, um so later do you want to kick off the stuff?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, let's go back into it. Introduce Paul, yeah. Paul, um writer, director, former actor, or still acting. We hope to find out. But see, to go from the start, you were an actor before you got into directing and writing, which we'll jump into later. Yes, mate. How did you get started?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

As an actor, yeah. Uh I was about 12 and I went into where I lived in Devon, where I was staying, uh, I just moved. There was uh a local theater, and I joined along with a mate, or someone I yeah, acquaintance mate, I don't know, but uh went to watch him rehearse and then I auditioned for a panto and got that, and that was it. Felt the urge for the adulation I didn't receive anywhere else.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

But but but then but then from from from the panto, um well actually I'm gonna stop for a second because there's there's a little question we ask everyone, Paul, before yeah, before we dive in, before we dive into the nitty gritty of of you and your career, amazing career, uh and and and uh interest and all that. There's a little question we ask everyone off the top of the show. What do you do for fun?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

I don't know what that word means. Um I I don't know, you know, I sort of think about I I I sort of do think I'm football probably, playing football. Um is uh a good you know, I do enjoy that a lot.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Um and then we you had the uh you had the ice bar thing as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

I've started I started doing that last year and then didn't do it for a bit because I was away and then I've started doing it again. That's not for fun, pal, that's freezing.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

I tell you what, because the reason I ask, I've always liked the idea of it, but I just think I'm too much of a wimp, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Well, I mean I'm a wimp in so many ways, and I sort of do it now to try and you know dispel the myth to myself that I'm a wimp, and to prove that I have some degree of willpower. Non-alcoholic beer.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Oh no, look, no, no, snap. Non-alcoholic.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, I haven't drank for nearly uh well 11 and a half years. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

So we well, I know you're you're a bit of a football nut, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

I mean, I like to be honest, I like playing. I wish I was better. I wish I was younger and fitter and all that jazz. And you know, I've sort of been interested, been watching the World Cup has been a bit, I don't know, disappointing for be one because of the time zone, yeah, and because if you've got kids, yeah, you know, basically all my sort of kid, uh all my football guys mates who have I've got older kids or no kids or whatever, they're just they're texting late night, but man, yeah, it's not. But I think you know, it's interesting to watch some of it, and it's not like it was when I was when I was young before I had a family and stuff where I would have been obsessed, yeah, and going out and getting hammered at every uh you know, at the pub.

SPEAKER_05 9:29

And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

But I think if I watch it with oh, sorry, go on.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

No, no, go on, you carry on.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

No, it's utterly uninteresting.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

I've I've it it's been quite difficult, uh similar sort of thing. It's been quite difficult, I found, to to really sort of fall in love with this work up. And I and I think I'm I think I'm just gonna have to put it down to the time difference, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Has to be, yeah, I agree. Same yeah, yeah, because if it's on in the day, when you're at if you're working at home or whatever, you can put it on on the i you know, and just have it in the background, but at night you can't. Um plus I think it what it's you know what's been going on behind the scenes and some of the things that you just think uh some of the decision making, and you just like, come on, man, it's so it's slightly ruined. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

No, I agree. There's been this yeah, there's there's a little bit too much sort of outside influence uh that's sort of ruining it for uh for me anyway. Something anyway.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Um, Lates, you want to jump in? Yeah, so um go back to your panto career. I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

I think my first ever thing was like playing this uh character playing Ganeroid roll. Anyway, I can still remember the name, but of this Spider King's this you know, assistant to a spider king. And obviously it was you know, Amdram, which I do think there's a place for it was quite fun, and you know, I got to wear stupid makeup and clothes made of bin liners, but it was um it was basically from there. I just enjoyed I don't know what it was an escape in a way, because uh basically in my childhood where I lived, it was either it was only gambling, there's only like arcades in the pier and stuff like that, which I spent my most of my time messing about with. Um, but I got really into drama, and then luckily I had a really amazing couple of teachers at the school. Uh had uh my drama teacher Wendy Waits and my English teacher Chris Dryden. I was absolutely hopeless, I failed English miserably. But she was she really sort of looked out for me and really, you know, sort of let me know that I was not I was pretty good, I was alright, and sort of gave me a uh you know the the interest and confidence that I didn't get from you know at home and stuff like that. So, you know, she's I still see them, I speak to them and see them whenever possible, um, because they're both married now. But um they from there I got into the you know, they sort of helped me get towards the National Youth Theatre, yeah. Um, where I got in there, and then from going to the National Youth Theatre, I realized it was drama schools, and because I'd failed all my exams, I got uh I managed to get into Lambda.

SPEAKER_05 12:32

Um wow, very good school.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

It was a good you know, listen, I was 18 and obviously I just moved to moved to Lambda without really knowing what was what. I had no idea what about Shakespeare, I didn't know all the plays, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I was very uh green, and it took about a year for me to sort of be told, you know, or for me to feel that actually I was alright, I was good, whatever I was doing, whichever, and then the next, you know, and I sort of did well, got an agent, pretty much first one to get an agent at in the summer, left early to do a job, you know, and did bits and bobs, and then really thought I was the bee's bollocks, um, as you do, yeah, and then sort of had a bit of a meltdown. Um couldn't get work on the dole, doing loads of gear, and then I went and moved back home and sort of gave it up kind of vibe, was selling windows, um, and then the the woman I the the woman I was with, we broke up and I got a credit card and we moved back to London to live with some people from drama school, and in that year I'd written a short film and I thought, you know, let's try and do this. And I'd managed to get a couple of jobs, like casualty and you know, uh soldier soldier and stuff like that. And then I managed to get um I got a band of brothers, yeah, yeah, which paid for the short. Um, and it paid for the short, and it also made me realise that I never ever want to be an actor again.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

So um, can I jump so the short, we're talking about royalty, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

No, no, the short I'd made we raised about seven grand, yeah, and we shot this short film called The Thief, which was not a great short, but it was produced and put together professionally, if you like. Yeah, it was alright. I've seen worse, and um, and you know, sort of it made me realise I could do it of some to some degree, and then made another one and then remade royalty.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

So what was was there was there any experience with uh being behind the camera before making that short, or was it literally just flying blind?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Flying blind before making the first one.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Wow, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, yeah, but the thing is that I stand by you know all it is is you just get some you tell you work out where you want to see and you get loads of people put it, you know, do it. I think that was the only thing. And I definitely didn't want to be an actor anymore.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

I think I'd be on me asking what put you off being an actor.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Band of really I really hated that job more than uh anything. Oh wow, I really did. Uh I was thinking, you know, because I was thinking about obviously, you know, knowing that I was gonna speak to you, and I was thinking about god man, I f I absolutely hated it. I hated it and I hated the way that we were treated, and I hated not actually, and I'm I'm not just saying this, but not by you, Nick. Right, but by all of the other American actors treated like shit, and I'm like, I don't know, and and and not the director, but and the like the uh all the sort of uh sergeants and stuff, and I'm like, man, this is not what it's about, dude.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Because this was episode two, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah, one little tiny bits and bobs, and you you you were really good in it.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

You you oh man, I had listen.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

I mean, the thing is you couldn't even tell I was good in it because you probably couldn't even for me.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

Um yeah, but we were on a night shoot, we were on a night shoot the whole time, yeah. We were around each other all night, and and actually you you were you were a joy to be around. And I think looking back now with hindsight, and this is not me bro and smoke up your ass, I think because I probably at this point had been through boot camp with a lot of the Yanks, and and I think for me, you would you're you were quite calm on set, and I think it was a bit of a breath of fresh air.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Um I think I just didn't, if I'm honest, I basically it was the first time ever I was like, stand in the background, don't get in the way, don't try and find the camera, just fucking do your job, go home, don't do anything. And do you know what? I remember the first you know, because some of the American actors were just so rude. Um, you know, and being, you know, and I understand that there's a method and there's a youth about it, and there's an ego about it, you're doing a fucking massive show, and you know, I guess but I was just so unused to it, and I I I hear, and I can't, you know, but the word was obviously people would were told to sort of treat you like you're a new crew, and I'm like, but that's the real army, man. You know, that's the real army. This isn't the real army, you know, and so basically, if you all think it is, that's fine, but that's just not. And I just remember, and then what's weird is I I read recently in the in a in an article, I can't remember which magazine or where I saw it, but one of the one of those American actors who was particularly rude talking about how he how he struggles to get work as a as a day player. And uh I was like, maybe you should be nice to people. But you know, um, I remember, yeah, so listen, but the thing is is it taught me a lot in terms of like what to you know, it's a real good learning about how to treat people and how you know when you're a day player or when you're coming into a job, you know, which is you know is a massive, massive, massive job. And I think it's the duty of the people who are working, uh uh you know, have got a decent amount to do in it to make sure the people who come in feel welcome enough to do something. Um, so that that taught me quite that that made me really think about that. Um, and it also, as I said, it it was I still get money for it, you know. I'm sure you guys do, you know. Um so yeah, there was a lot to a lot to be grateful about.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

I was gonna say there's this there's positive experience from that, isn't it? From your own how you treat your own casting crew, really, even though they're gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I mean the thing is it's like look, you know, the the the the it's really difficult being um uh coming in just for a few parts a few for a day, or coming in for a smaller part, and everyone knows each other, and you know, you're really trying to find your feet, plus you've got to act, plus you've got to uh and you know, I think that it with anything, with any working environment, you're always gonna get a better a better outcome from people you're working with if they don't feel like oh I've got to do 25 press-ups if I screw this up, you know. Or or if someone's not gonna give me his real name, that's fine, but they don't have to grunt at me, you know. Like, I've got to speak to you, I've got to look at you in this scene. We've got what come on, man. Anyway, however, it was quite interesting to see and to see Dale die, and to see how you know, such a massive as a bigger scale thing I'd been on, as I'm sure at the time it was for for you guys. Um, and uh it was an experience, and you tot it down to like teaching you something, and which is what it did.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Yeah, and and as and unfortunately, you're probably not the only gay player that came in like uh had that experience as well, which is it's it's never nice to hear um you know that people didn't really have a good experience if they were not part of the original boot camp, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Um, yeah, it's about I mean the thing is if I look, you know, people take act people, you know, and as I've directed over the years, you realize that actors all have different processes, right? And the thing is, is I think a lot of the actors in that show, from what I could see, were it was their first sort of like big job, right? So, in a way, how it it's how uh there is a duty of or responsibility to sort of go, you're gonna have a long career in this industry, hopefully. So how you do stuff it defines you, and you know, as I said, you you spoke to me. You spoke to me normally, and you know, you called yourself Popeye, and I understand that that was the that was the deal. I couldn't get my head around that because yeah, I just couldn't do it. Um Although I've worked with actors many, many times since who prefer to who like to do that, who who uh like to do that. I just think that a lot of the actors, including myself, were young men, and you could say there was an impressionable impressionable side of this massive scale thing, being told to do this, being kind of macho, everyone, you know, and it just wasn't for me.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Yeah, so um going on from that, so was Band of Brothers the last time you were an actor?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I think I did after that. I did no, well, after that I did a bit of a I did a little bit on EastEnders. Um because I was skinned as well, as you know, it was so broke, and um I it was like yes, I did a little bit on East Enders, like a few episodes. Um, and then and then nothing, I started directing, and after I'd made Lollington Brighton, um I think I've made the I think I've made a couple of films, and I'd got an agent, an acting agent, just because I said, Look, do you want to take can you do us a favour, take us on? I'm not really that arse, so if I don't hear from you, I won't be chasing you. I'm like, if something comes in and you're like, yeah, go for it. And I never bothered her. And then there was a cast in the record called Doreen Jones. Do you remember her? Well, I saw her when I was when I was acting, and she'd obviously heard from my agent at the time, like, oh, think Paul might. She was like, get him in. And I got in and I did an episode of Wallinder.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

Oh, yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Um whenever I do an acting in anything, even if I'm in my own thing for two minutes, I fucking shit myself.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

I find it really, really like uh because obviously you were like let we're gonna let so let's talk about London to Brighton. Now, before London, I mean London Brighton is an incredible film, right? So it I guess that's what sort of launched you as a director, you as a director, right? You it it announced you. Yeah, announced because you know it it it went on to be incredibly well received. Um and still to this day, whenever you know I mention you or London to Brighton comes up uh w without doubt.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

Um now royalty, so was royalty um was it so when you made royalty the short before London to Brighton, which they're quite similar.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

No, they're the same characters and everything. I had basically when I made royalty it was like a showcase of directing and Ryan or whatever. But I had that's as much as it was gonna be, right? And it wasn't anyways, but I like the characters, I like working with Johnny, and I liked working with Lorraine, and um and then basically I tell me to shut up if this gets really dull. But um, I tried for ages to get a film called The Cottage Made, right? And we'd gone to various places, and the film council had put money in, and so and so. There was lots of people interested in doing it, but it kept getting knocked back, kept getting knocked back. And I was during this time, I was having my own sort of personal anxiety problems that were you know really massive, and I was just getting so sick of it because I went over to America with a little film scheme with Fox, and so I lived there for a little bit, and I really again, you know, you go over so green thinking everything's gonna be amazing, and you realize it isn't, and that's not because I deserved, you know. Basically, I just wasn't anyone, and you know, can you nug you? I totally understand. And I got offered a film which was called Wild Things 3, right? Now there was a film, the first original Wild film, uh Wild Things was with Nev Campbell and Matt Matt Dillon, yeah. Yeah, and it's actually a really good noiry fucking mad film, right? Great film, so I was offered this third one. I didn't know there was a second one, and so I was like, okay, so I thought I'd do it, and it was great. It was with Sony, I was getting a bit of money, and and I was living in LA, and I was suddenly like, man, this is really shit. It was really shit, and then I also had no control, nothing, totally no respect off any of the people I was doing it for, and then I sort of had a bit of a breakdown. I was like, I can't do it, so I pulled out and went home, and I still couldn't get the cottage made, and I was like, that's it. So I met Lorraine. I basically wrote this script and thought I wrote London to Brighton. I honestly I wrote it from Friday to Monday in uh just a burst of like fuck this. And I went round and I saw Lorraine and Johnny, and we met up and I said, I want to do this. And then basically I had a business angel uh who had sort of helped me out with shorts and stuff and put some money into the royalty, and he was an ex stock uh insurance broker at Lloyd's, and he was a mate's dad. And I met him before we've seen a show. I said, Listen, man, I've got this great idea, I'm gonna make a film, I'm gonna make it for 60 grand, and I'll make this film for 60,000 pounds. Be at the cinema, everything's gonna fucking you know make everyone loads of money. And if you give me this, if you can get me the 60 grand from you and your mates who are rich and so on, then we do it 50-50. I'll make the film. And he said, Yeah, okay. And then he gave me I needed rent, so he paid my rent for me that month, and found a producer, and then he found 60 grand, and then we were shooting three or four months later. Wow, and we made it for 60 grand, and we did some reshoot, something was 80 grand. Wow, which at the time was still so low. I mean, so ridiculously low.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

But yeah, but at the time, that's pro you know, for for a first feature, that's actually there's people making features first features for less than that now.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Um no, I know, and it was one of the listen, it was one of the first films, like a real micro budget thing, because we couldn't pay anyone at all. Everything cost the same, nothing. So there was no arguments about locations or kit or anything, because when they'd say, Well, what's the price difference? I'm like, Well, it doesn't matter because we haven't got anything anyway. And we worked the most ridiculous amount of hours. Everyone was really it was the first thing for everyone, pretty much. Yeah, and it was probably the better one of the better experiences of my life, you know, in terms of making something.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

So were were the majority of the cast, did we were you were friends before that? Did you know each other?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

I knew a couple of people, uh, people I'd worked with as an actor. We had auditions uh for George's part and and some of the others, and my agent at the time was like, Oh, uh my client will do this, and you know, being shameless like Jack Dean did it, and that's cool. Sandy Morton did it. Um, Tim Matthews. Um, he came and did a day because I'd worked with him, just you know, and weirdly, it was gonna, I think Dexter Fletcher was gonna do it, but he broke his foot, he broke his leg, so he couldn't do it, and he was gonna come and do that little part for the day. Um, and it was also like we've got my mate was in it because he had a Jeep. I said, if you've got a four by four Land Rover, if you drive it, you can be in it. If you can use your car, you can drive it and be in it.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

So you just do what you can to make a thing, and that's what made everyone the ethic was quite the work ethic, was quite um great because we were just all working for nothing because we were excited as well. It was exciting, it was exciting and scary and nerve-wracking, and and there was no expectation, which is such a brilliant place to be, because at some point expectation comes everywhere, not just of people on you, but of you on other people. For example, you do a job like Bander Brothers, which is a massive job, and you could quite, and in fact, you do any big job as an actor, and I've done big jobs, you know, and you're like, when I leave this job, I am gonna make it and be so massive because I am being treated like I'm the biggest actor in the whole world right now in this area, and then you leave and you ain't the biggest actor, do you know what I mean? You just go and and and you know, and it's um takes uh takes an awful lot of to get your head background, I think.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

So because that was so well received, right? I mean, you were you were picking up awards all over the shop, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah, good, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Because so then it's it's like you said, you know, when when an actor's on a big show, they feel like a big actor. At this point, then you must have felt like as a director, I've arrived.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

I at that at this at that point I was having a mini breakdown because I was like, How can you chop how can you top this kind of response from you know the first film, and it was going five stars, five stars, five stars, best film of the year, you know, all this sort of stuff, and obviously it wasn't gonna do loads of business, but I basically know whatever comes next ain't gonna be that. Um and also everyone now thinks I'm really good, whereas I don't know how I did it, yeah, kind of vibe, you know. Um, so and the only film I had ready to go was The Cottage, which was so far removed from running to Brighton. Yeah, and because someone was saying, here's the money to do it, I'm like, but I need to do it because I'm fucking got no money. Uh and I did that, and you know, in hindsight, probably not the right move to make, but at the time, young and naive, and just like you know, listen, you know, listen to the the um everyone thought it was gonna be a massive hit, you know, all the people behind it. I was like, yes, and yeah, it was a real come straight back down to earth after uh after that film, but you know, I was lucky to be making movies, but it it still takes me. I still think of the same thing, I still feel exactly the same now. Why have you given why am I doing this? Why have you let me do that? Because I'm gonna fuck it up.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Really? That's uh that's that's mad. That's mad.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah, you've done some incredible work.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

I mean, but then the thing is so I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

No, no, it's okay. No, you say what you I was gonna say, yeah. Um, I mean, yeah, Nick introduced me to London to Brighton this week. Um and I I I thought utterly brilliant, and and and then watching like there's so many questions here as well. So apologies for if I'm going on a little bit. No, from that to Archie, which I've just been binging, which is incredible itself. And it it's how I suppose I'm trying to think of the question here is but your directing style and inspirations, or is there any inspirations, or are you just doing it your own way?

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Um, I think there's always little bits of inspiration for things, not even stuff that you can put your finger on to go, you know, but like you've seen stuff in the past and whatever. But for me, I'm like, you know, to say that I would only want to do a certain type of show or a certain type of story, it's really limiting, man. And actually, I think it sounds so wanky, dude, but like all it is is finding a like a truth for the a truth of the world or the world in which we're doing it, and sort of believe in in that. So whether it was Archie or Learns of Brighton or the cottage or bull or whatever, you're like, all I need to do is believe the world that it's in, what you know, and and you then adjust accordingly. And you know, Archie are really, really proud of that show, you know, and there's lots of stuff, you know, probably what I wouldn't say right now about that, but it was um, you know, it was a really mental job, and uh but I really loved the idea, I loved the idea of playing with all those different um formats and trying to do something different. And I I sorry so I'm not I'm easy if someone says you know, I didn't write that, although I definitely put loads of like bits in. Whereas, you know, all the films I've done right.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

But that's uh I mean what you just said, sorry, is it's such a good note. If you can find the truth in that particular story, then you you can make it about anything. That's such a fucking note, that's such a good note.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

That's fucking wisdom in it, man. Jesus. But no, I mean it like the thing is is like you can do that's why you go to the cinema to watch any genre or whatever, like that, because it's only when you set up a world and you and the people making it don't believe in that world or don't believe in you know, if the cat each character, whatever their whatever their story in, if they're telling the truth for that world, uh, and they're honest when they're speaking, and then that's it. They've the characters have got to believe it. Do you know what I mean? The characters have got to sit in the world and be like, yeah, I'm in the right place. I think whether that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Absolutely. I mean, with Archie, this is something I picked up on. It I think it's at the back end of episode one or two. I think it might have been one, the music, but it's not the music of the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Um, I think it's oh, yeah, yeah, it is uh, yeah. I mean, what was the thought process around that? Because I thought it was brilliant, by the way. Because I think that we started just you know, I think we've tried loads of music that we couldn't afford. Um, I mean, listen, I I didn't I hadn't really watched a lot of Peaky at that point, but I know Peaky have done it, and I think the music was more just about like an energy of like um, and also you know, you could if it didn't work, we I think we would have all gone, it's a bit you know, it stands out, or it becomes if it gets if it takes over from what you're looking at or distracts you from sort of being in it, that's when it's a bit like yeah, it definitely didn't, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

It really felt part of the scene, it really enhanced the scene, and it wasn't like a massive scene. I think they were they were walking, weren't they? Was he on it? Was he in LA at the time from trying to remember? But just enhanced the scene.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

There was a few little bits, there's bits where uh it might have been there's a like montage of Super 8 film and um coming over to America. That was one of the first bit. I haven't seen it for a long time. Obviously, I don't re-watch stuff.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Um so uh uh a personal a particular favorite of mine is Bull. Um what movie that have you seen that movie late?

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I haven't no oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Um have you seen Dragonfly? I haven't seen that yet, no.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

No, not yet. Um no, but Bull, yeah, go on. Sorry, what you're gonna say, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

Yeah, just just for me, it was just what a what a tour of force of you know of of of performance directing, everything.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Just yeah, Neil was Neil was, you know, look, Neil, we had really great actors. It was just after COVID, we had no money, it was like 500 grand, which is more than 60 grand, but and we shot it in three weeks, yeah, with COVID restrictions, yeah. And again, it was a lot of fun to do, and I had really like I really had good actors, and the thing is what I try to do as often as I can is hire my mates, yeah. Um not all mates, because then you'd obviously be very uh limited, but people you know that aren't gonna be twats, and just people that you can you know.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

So are you then hiring your mates purely because you you know that you're not getting a diva, for example, or are you hiring your mates because your mates are fucking good actors?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

I think a di a bit of both. I think that some of my like a couple of mates who were in ball are actors but not actors. Yeah, you know, like they're actors, but they don't really do it. That's not really what they do a lot of, but they don't try, they don't um you know they can appear natural, and and also you're not paying a lot of money, and when you're not paying a lot of money, you're basically asking people to stay up all night and fucking in the cold, doing whatever, you know, to do it as a jolly, and and all of them were like, fucking so glad to be here, I'm so glad to be here, and it's something really important about that because a lot of actors can't be fucked to be there.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Yeah, yeah, they're sort of in it for the wrong reasons.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Well, yeah, I mean the thing is, is you know, and you say I keep trying to remind myself about this all the time I'm working, or getting paid to write, or whatever, is that it is uh luxury getting paid for what we do, we might always we might not always get work, right? But when we do, there is a fucking massive amount, uh millions of jobs that are way beneath that in the enjoyment scale, right? Yes, even being sat in your trailer chatting with the other actors that aren't on, and so on and so on. There are that's better than almost every other job I've ever done that's not been in acting or directing. I've not had a job where it's made me go, um at least I'm not chapped in that fucking trailer. Or at least I'm not being kept waiting. You know, I wouldn't think about it. However, as an actor it can be really uh they can get really fucked off. You know, and the thing is it's interesting because look, I think the thing that makes people pissed off as an actor and working on and you can tell me if you feel this might be true, is it like being taken the piss out of. Right? So when you're being called and when you're being taken the piss out of by a production um in terms of keeping you waiting or bringing you just on the off chance, or basically just not necessarily having your job as an actor, as in trying to put a performance on um at heart, uh, then that's where I think it can be actors and rightly so, and me and everyone where you think hang on, someone's taking the piss here because someone's getting paid money and I ain't some fucking dude at the top of the chain, actor-wise, is getting fucking loads, and he's being the or she's been the most difficult. Yeah, I'm getting that's when you can I can totally appreciate getting fucked off. Anyway, I don't know why I've got onto that subject. Bull fucking loved it. That's right, but you hire mates because they're a bit more like oh, I'll deal with it, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Yeah, I think uh yeah, it's it's you've cons obviously consistently done that, and it's and I guess there's that's the that's the rhymes, it's always worked out for you.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Um I get told off for doing it, like the producer, uh producer of work in the castle, like you know, you can hire other people, Paul. And I'm like, yeah, I know, I do, but you think someone's right, and you're like, Well, why do I need to audition ten people? And I he's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

unknown 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

How do you guys feel about like auditioning now?

SPEAKER_04 43:52

And um I like auditioning.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

But even in this current

SPEAKER_04 44:02

Yeah, I don't mind it because I just see it as an opportunity to just to do a mini performance. And whether that performance goes anywhere or gets seen by anything, I don't give a shit. It's just for me, it's just an opportunity for me to just give something a crack, you know? Um and whether you're wrong, whether you get a job sometimes can be is no reflection on whether you're it's not a reflection on it ever.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

It's never too short. It's not a reflection.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Too fat, too thin. It could be anything, right? Um, you know, if someone didn't think you were a good actor, then you wouldn't be asked to take for it in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

No, I know. I mean, I can tell you, like, it's so weird being a director after they've been an actor, and you're like, you know, I always treat auditions really seriously and make sure actors get real comfortable, get loads of goes, and you know, really, I really understand what it's like, and I'm on and I sort of clock myself about how to act because I know when I was an actor, I would be fucking focusing on every nuance to see if that was some kind of indicator of a yay or a nay. But then as a director, you realize that there is no indicator, you can be whatever you say to someone, or however you shake their hands, or however you say, Well, I'll see you soon, man, or good luck. You know, it's never like that, it's always very rarely do you see someone go, they are it, and very rarely do you see someone go, Whoa, that person is so shit, they can never come back again. You know, you you see people and go, they're not right for this, but they're right for that. They we should give them that part, yeah. Um, and you go, Fuck man, they're so good. I wish I could give it to fucking five people. It you know, it really is so never about anyone's ability because auditions are the most fake bullshit environments to show your acting ability, there is. Yeah, you go into a room, you with a load of people who fucking read 16 times that day, and you've got to perform this thing which is completely out of fucking situ.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

And within that, you know, like two pages gotta make me or whoever it is think that you're the fucking one for this. Fucking bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

So, what's the answer then?

SPEAKER_01 46:30

To be honest, I personally uh I don't really like reading. I don't like people reading. I much prefer it meeting someone and chatting about it and gauging because realistically, like you said, right, unless you're completely wrong, most people who get to come to an audition or do a tape have done enough in their career to warrant being in that position, right? So you would say that they're pretty good, okay? And if that's the case, then for me, I'm like, all I now need to do is know that you can we me and you can converse and work together and have enough of a back and forth to get to the same point as a performer um on the screen, right? So uh, you know, and you you can sort of tell if someone's gonna be way off what you might need, and you can also tell whether someone's really on your wavelength, and you can see where where they might go. Like, for example, this last thing I've done with James McAvoy and Erin Doherty, right? Um, I'd seen Adolescence, but I'd not really seen it. I hadn't really I couldn't really focus on her. Um, I'd seen it ages ago, and then I'd seen an episode of uh Thousand Blows or whatever, but again, I wasn't really watching it for her or anything like that. And I saw this tiny clip on YouTube of her talking with a like a um an introduction thing which she did for Netflix, where she was on a street going, This is where I lived, this is my auntie, and she sat down with her auntie in her talk, and I'm like, that's her man. And I felt personally I felt like I could just see from the way she was being that I could see an authenticity in her that I didn't really think about her acting. I just thought of like she's someone who I think will be able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

Um and and and uh so did you have to you obviously didn't have to convince anyone of that, just it was no no, and basically the thing is is everyone's got a value in this fucking stupid industry, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Yeah, so there is a value in appearance and name that is often greater than the value of not necessarily ability, but greater than their suitability for a part, right? So, you know, when you're doing a thing and it's got a certain price tag to the budget, and they're like, okay, well, in order for us to justify that budget, here's a list of names, which might not be what you think uh who you think are completely right, but if we're gonna sell this film, then that's who we need. One of these, yeah. And you go, Well, they're not right, they're not right, they're not right, they're not right. The person who is right is not necessarily where you want them to be on that list. I'm not just talking about faith, I'm just talking about casting in general, but TV as well. Um, and you know, and you go through various back and forths with trying to cast people who you know are going to get the script and go, I'm not right for this. Why have they sent it me? But you are ticking an ex doing it having an exercise with um sales agents or whoever, um, because they need to fucking watch their money. Yeah, it's all just such, you know, that's why making London to Brighton or doing your own show or doing your own fucking short films, and it's so great because you've not got to buy into any of that stuff. You cast who you want to cast, you cast who you think is right. Now I'm very fortunate that in the majority there's nothing really in my in my stuff I've done before that I'm like, I really fucking wish we didn't cast that person. I've been touch wood, very lucky that everyone who's done a something with me has worked really well.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

You know, even if you've answered loads of my questions in that last five, ten minutes. Oh, sorry, dude. Tell me a shot up, man. You're gonna have to. No, no, it's great, no, it's great because it's just I didn't need to say anything, you just sort of you've said it. Um, yeah, no, you just that was gonna be one of my things was if you ever had the right person, but they're the wrong person attitude-wise, but you've just you've answered that question.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

I would never I would basically I would rather someone who I who I had to work harder with because they weren't as an established or uh or as a I say gifted, but I don't or a good actor, if you like, because I don't I think that's a really sort of grey area of like what's good and whatever. But if there was a good you know, I've worked with actors uh who I won't name who I think are actually exceptionally good, but I would just not want to do it again because it's just not worth it, yeah, because life's too short.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

So um let's have a little uh a little cheeky question, a little fun question here then. So what what are the top three films for?

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Um it would differ. Uh I would say nil by mouth?

SPEAKER_05 52:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

I wouldn't say an old by mouth. I mean, these are just like there could be a million films. Um kne by mouth, I would say aliens. Oh aliens or alien aliens, aliens or aliens, which one uh second, second one, aliens.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Yeah, that's I agree. That's that's the best one. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

As a per uh as what I think is Fincher's girl with a dragon tattoo and seven, I mean so many, like a lot of fincher, a lot of Cameron, so a lot of Fincher, yeah. Yeah, he's just amazing. Yeah, like I'll tell you what, I'm watching a couple of things at the minute. I'm fucking like envious as envious as can be.

SPEAKER_04 52:57

What are they?

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Cape Fear, the series, and uh Star City.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

Oh, I don't know that. No, I don't know either.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Don't apple with Anna Maxwell Martin and Reese.

SPEAKER_04 53:09

Down now, right down now, and it is I've seen it, but I've not watched it yet.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

I know you're on about watching people who are doing well. Um like Barantini. I don't like that shit, man.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

He's doing well, he's doing very well. But but so you, Dexter, there's some fucking really good directors that have come together.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

They've got more fucking.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

I don't get the they get the nah, but yeah, but but but people that know know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

I really I think I um I both of them are actually who I have met many times and know. Uh I think they're both very cool people.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

They're just the greatest, and and and just uh you know, I like it when I like it when success happens to people that that are nice and deserve it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 54:07

I prefer it happening to me more than them. Basically, when you see mates who are doing really well, you know, like for example, my wife won a BAFTA before me, and I was so proud of her, and I was also there was I'd be a lion if I didn't say but I've got to step this shit up.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Have you have you ever told her that? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Because I'm being honest, man. I still me wanting one doesn't take away from me being pleased for her, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

You know, I don't want I didn't want her, I don't want her to fail from it. When I found out she was nominated, I was like, fucking jump. I was more excited than she was.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

Amazing, you know. So we got we got those three.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Um, I've got one, I've got one, Nick.

SPEAKER_04 55:02

Go on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

And I did say this tick earlier. I I actor or actresses dead or alive, who would you love to work with that you've not? That I've not worked with dead or alive, they can be dead or alive.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Thing is, is do you know what's really honest? Can I say something that's really honest? If someone's really big and done loads of stuff, I still get intimidated massively. I still worry that they're going, what the fuck is this shit going to? So I still I still panic that that's the case. Even though I fucking actors I've worked with have won loads of what I still think they're looking at me going, you are shitpaul. What are you talking about? That's my own paranoia. But um actors who I'd like to who I really would like to work with. You know what? I do like that's such a good question. I'd like to someone I really like Ricky Tomlinson. Oh and actually, I tell you what, and Carolina Hearn. Yeah, I fucking think she's a genius. Um American wise, I think Michael Keaton is oh, that's an excellent choice. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

Great fucking choice.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

She is uh uh he him and Michael Douglas as well, both you know, really amazing actors. Vera Farmiger, I remember watching her go, man, she's so good. I'd fucking I just like I like working with actors, man. Yeah, that's why you want to be a direct, that's why you want to, you know, you want to be in something, you want to be part of creating something. And when all said and done, and you're putting your marks down, and you've got to fucking hit the beat, and you've got to remember your line and look where the camera. The bottom line is you just it's just about the joy of of coming up with stuff and feeling like, yeah, man, I've created that, yeah. And your words or my words, and you know, you'll say something and we'll trigger off each other and we'll come together and we'll do something, and and and then we'll feel good about it. I mean, we won't feel good about it because we've fucking done acting, or fucking acted the shit out of that, which is you can spot a mile off, I can, or I feel I can, but when you come up with something you're like, guys, I really felt good about that that we didn't fucking take the piss and we got something nice. Um, like in Dragonfly, like Neil, love him, it's a fucking amazing actor. Dragonfly, Brenda, and and Andrea just fucking out of this world, completely different actors. Yeah, just amazing. You know, James in James McAvoy in this film I've just done. What a fucking joy, and what an amazingly calm and uh giving and patient actor he is, and it was really good to to to work with him, and then Erin, who I fucking am absolutely in awe of in her ability and her normalness, and just and and so I've met some people and I've worked with some people that I'm very very fortunate to have worked with and to have an understanding of, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:30

And you know, you know, you're saying about about moments uh in you know that that are not scripted. So where do you tend to sit on rehearsals for something you you don't do it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

I mean the thing is you rehearse something that needs rehearsing, something that's like technical and so and so. Um it depends if I've written it, right? If I've written it, then I definitely don't want to rehearse it.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

And I definitely don't first of all, I don't want you to feel tied to what I've said. Um, I don't I tend to block it with them. I don't really shop storyboard because I want to see what as an actor you are gonna do in the morning. You think is right, and there's no so there's no point in me thinking, oh, we're gonna put you this here, and the camera's gonna come here and follow you. Sometimes you have to do that, but other than that, you're like, Yeah, let's have a go. And a lot of the time you work with actors who don't want to give it really until you go in, but also I don't like doing loads of takes, so you can, you know, like you work with someone and they do a couple of takes, and you're like, all right. Because there's so there's um, you know, I say to people I uh actors I work with us that I'm like, if I believe you, you just gotta make me believe you, and if I believe you in it, then you can do it a million ways, and I believe all of them. So I just need to believe you, and then you'll get me, and then you don't just need to move on.

SPEAKER_04 59:57

Yeah, so that uh that was gonna be my next question. You already answered it about ad lib and and be you know being tied to the script, etc.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Ever. Yeah, yeah, great. I mean, there might be lines and stuff, but you know what? I'll tell you who is tied to script, and that's a lot of the time you find that writers of TV, when they're certainly when they're not on set, get very, very protective about their dialogue, about their script. When my feeling is that when you write something, you get to set, and actually it all changes because you're opening it up, it's going from 2D to 3D, and you know, you've got everyone involved, and it's gonna change, and unless you're free enough to go, okay, well, that doesn't work, we need to do that, then that's a problem. So that's why, like, you know, in terms of writing myself, it's easy for me to go, yeah, fucking get rid of that and try that and do that. Whereas a lot of the time, uh, if you've got a writer who's established or whoever, that they're like, if this is how I wrote it, I'm like, well, come fucking do it then, because I can't go in your head. And you you can see how it's gonna work of these five people that you have written for, go for it. Yeah, that'll get me no work now from other writers.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:28

Um before sorry, before you wrap up because I know we've had you on quite a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

No, mate, listen, listen, I'd love to I'll talk for fucking till tomorrow about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

I I have got a question. Obviously, you have written, sorry, you've directed, we've spoken a lot about that, but writing, how did what inspires you to write? Where do the stories come from? Just my head.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Obviously. Um, but yeah, is it it can be anything, it can be a bit of music, it can be where my mind takes me just walking down a road, and I don't write treatments, I don't like writing treatments at all, or I basically I look at it as like improvising while writing. So I'm writing something at the minute, and I don't really have little bits and bobs throughout, but I'm fucking making it up as I go along, and just like you know, in a way, sometimes that might work really well, and because it has a hopefully it has an element of like something leading to the other without it being too um contrived, um you know, there's too much contrivance because when we speak and when we our lives are all follow on from the last bit, so I don't try I try not to write to lead up to something.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

So do you do um do you write so I I I've I've done this myself. I I don't know what uh whether it's a normal I've never heard of anyone that does it. I've never asked anyone to be honest. But I write, I sort of act out this the characters in the scene into my fucking phone. I've tried to do that by the way on the buttons, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

On a phantom loser. Oh, I yeah, the buttons to memory, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

Because uh when I try to write something, when I read it back, it just sounds like it's just written and it's not real. So I I'll try and play the characters in the scene with the pauses, and then when I go back to jot it all down, I'll jot down the how important that pause was, maybe. You know, so but if you could've I can't you can't write that. So do you so being a being a former actor? Yes, I know you fucking.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

I always do it in my head. I'm always like saying how the lines are in my head.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:48

Yes, that's what I'm trying to get at.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

But then I always go, I don't read stuff back, right? So start writing, get to the end. I don't go back and like go over the lines here unless I'm looking at like a plot thing that I need to check out did this. Because I like the idea of it just being free to where it goes, and then hopefully it's it's not shit. And I think, of course, uh, you know, you're an actor, you know how to say stuff. The difficulty is that like no matter how many times you write it and say it in your head, the actor ain't gonna say it that way, right? So I'm always like, all I can do is write it how I think it should be, you know, it say it in my head and how it'd be. Um, and make sure you write it boring. You know, I always write it like because we talk shit. Yeah, when we talk about things, we don't talk in the way that a writer does because we don't fucking plan what we're gonna say. So it has to be fresh. If if you know, you can tell when I read a script, sent to me a script, you can read in fucking one page when someone's gone and thought about a response, yeah. And I'll write stuff and I'll be like, that's a cool response, and I'll be like, they've never said that's fucking too clever. Yeah, that's too clever because we ain't that clever, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:19

Yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Um obviously, depending on what you do and what kind of style you're trying to, I don't know, what kind of do, but I'm always I always think that writing is fucking get just get the dialogue out as quick as you can in the easiest way possible. But once you've got your character, I definitely go through and go, that sounds like that character. I've got to make sure this character speaks differently.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

So that word he wouldn't use, he'd use this word, and you know, here and there, but so then are you are you then writing with actors in mind? Have you already decided oh this act? So I'll write it in terms of how he I think he might play it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

No. Just write it as oh, I think the character would act as if she was real.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

So I wouldn't write, I'd write it as if she was. It's difficult because writing is so personal in terms of how people do it and how people, you know, all you need to do is be believable. And the thing is, is some people don't if you're watching a movie, like realistically, like you can't compare the script for Enola Holmes 3 to 0 by mouth. You just can't compare those. They're completely both writing, both you know, individual characters speaking in individual ways, but one is one world and one is the other world. So as long as you know what world you're writing, and you can then, as I said before, in terms of work out the truth of how the character is gonna write and how it's characters gonna play, and so on and so on. And I think that that's what's really important because if you write any dialogue that might fit into a heightened film and try and put that in a normal film, like a film that you want to be realistic and believable, then it ain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:15

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:16

Um people write dialogue without listening to other people speak, they listen to movies speak, um, and then but what's weird is that a lot of scenarios that we face in our life, especially really horrible ones or really amazing ones, we don't ever experience in reality. We only experience them through other films, a play, or a TV show. So coming to write about tragedy and how one deals with tragedy, it's unless you've been through something like that, it's very difficult not to sort of see it through the eyes of drama or of other, you know, 20,000 different versions of it when reality is fucking not the same. Never and it's so much more intense and and dull and than than it is, and you can see people who write drama like they watch drama and uh if it's if I always find that like if you're working on something and it's really I always say to people that when they're acting a scene which has got which is a tough scene or dramatic sense, you don't have to do anything because the drama's in what's going on, you don't have to fucking add drama to what how you're being, the drama's in the room, and that's yeah, oh man, my ADHD dude fucking won't can't shut me up.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

I love it. Um I don't really late if you want anything to any no no that was it, that was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

No, that was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

Yeah, that was I think I'd be it's probably all fucking nonsense.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:59

Well, no, but the but but it I mean it's nonsense to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

Uh um but fascinating for me, I'll be honest with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:08

It's fascinating. Paul, it's fascinating, man. I I think you're an absolutely incredible director and writer. And and I particularly like the fact you don't overwrite. Um less is more, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Less is more, baby, unless it's like you're weighing out sweets.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

Well, yeah, or or yeah, or yeah, or naughty stuff back in the day, but yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

I think uh yeah, people complicate things.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:42

Yeah, over overcomplicating it, and just I think the beauty is in stillness and space. Um so let's go. We've been on for over now. We've been on for over now.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:58

Let's um wrap her up, isn't it? And just no, no, thank you for that, Paul. That was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

No, no, it isn't. I'm grateful that even anyone fucking gives a shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Oh, absolutely. No, I think that is it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:08

I'm sure people would be like, Paul likes to talk, don't he?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:11

Paul's got his nah nah, but the I I think you'd be I think this has been great.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

You can cut it down so it's just not no none of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:19

We're gonna fucking no, we're gonna we're gonna slow it down so it's even longer.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

I think people love to see all of the Bander Brothers guys, man. What do you still see any of the Bander Brothers guys?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:32

Well, I was with Phil last week in New York, but um yeah, exactly. Fuck him. Doing too well. Um I don't I I I occasionally sort of me and Dexter have a little message. Um I see Phil a lot. Uh who else, yeah, not a lot of them. No, not me, you know. It's kind of we'll we'll have a little message now and then.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Um but uh I tell you, I've been it is it is such a weird thing, isn't it? How you can be such an intense period, and I'll make sure I learn everyone's name on a job, but then two weeks after I fucking won't remember any of them. Um but I make sure I know everyone while I'm there, and and it you know, it's such an intense period.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

And a bubble, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:18

I mean, I've been chatting, I've been um I've been chatting a lot to um Jason Watkins lately.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

Yeah, he's so lovely, man. I've worked with him twice now. I fucking love him.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:27

Because he's he's gonna he's gonna be in my short film.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Oh, great. Are you directing it and written it?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:33

I'm directing it, written it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

When are you doing it?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:37

Um hopefully this year. I mean in my head, I've got October time, but how much money do you need for it? Uh we should. I need I think I need 10 around there. I'll send you the script. Let me send you a screen.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

Pick a fucking date. This is the thing, right? This is my advice to you, which you can burn or whatever. Pick a date, yeah, the end of the year, or whenever you're gonna do it, yeah, and whatever happens, however much money you've got, that's the date you're doing it. And it's simple as that. Because if you don't, I'm making a film. I'm not saying you personally, but all I know is that when we did London to Brighton, when we did Royalty, when we did other films that I've features that I've done, we're making it then. And I don't care if we've got fucking hundred grand or a thousand grand or whatever, you we we are doing it, and then the trains go in and it's fucking serious. Seriously, pick a date, man. Pick a date.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:35

That's great advice because I'll be honest, because I there there there's there was kind of a weird little element of imposter syndrome because I've never done this.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:43

Uh um, everyone's never done it once, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:46

Yeah. But when I sent Jace my script, we he phoned me and he and he and he loved it, and he said uh he'd love to do it. Um, so we're still we're still chatting right now. He's an island shooting.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:01

Um I honestly think it's great you've written it. Just don't fuck about, man. Don't put it off in any way, shape, or form. Fucking, you're making it on all you know, on in October the 27th, and that's the day you're doing it. I've got Jason Watkins, and now I know I'm doing it on the 27th. I'm gonna get everything else ready, and that way you booked it all, man, and the trains left the station, you've got to fucking do it. That's great advice.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:27

Yeah, but I think I think it's also kind of a a slight bit of my own kind of ADHD, or you know, just being I I've I sort of slightly find obstacles, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

Yeah, I know, I know you do. That's what we all do, not just you, man, everyone, and that's why if you say you're doing it, if it is happening, book some equipment that you can't get out of. Yeah, right, because the thing is, is the amount of people I've met in my life that's saying this industry who are like, I'm gonna do a film, man. Oh, it's great, it's gonna do this, this, and this. I'm like, mate, you can tell straight away from people who aren't gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Because there are people who are like, it needs to have this, I need to have this and this and this. I'm like, no, you don't, man. You're trying to make something perfect when it doesn't exist. 80% get fucking five people and two actors, and you'll fucking do it, and you'll have something. And once you've had something, the next one will be easier, and so on and so on. Don't fuck up that. My advice is don't fuck about, don't wait for 10, don't get seven and go, I need 10. Just do it for whatever you've got.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:32

Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

Because so much you can get for nothing.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:37

Well, I mean, Phil's already sorted the cameras for nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

Yeah, mate, that you fucking you're ready. Honestly, man, you've got enough directors that you know that can give you advice or can help you out.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

I really, it's you'll it'll be the best experience you've had. You'll shit yourself, like we all do.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:57

But you know, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna send you the script. I'd I'd love to just for you to have a little reading.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

How long is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:05

Uh gosh. What in terms of time or how many pages?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

How many pages?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

There's like four. There's hardly any dialogue.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:13

Four? Maybe more.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:18

Maybe actually it's maybe more pages than that. I'll send it to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

Yeah, send it to me. How many people are in it?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:25

Um, it's pretty much only Jason.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

Oh mate, fucking now. Peace of piss, dude. I don't know what you're fucking worrying about.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:33

It's pretty much only him. It's it's I I'll send it to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Have you read it later? No, he just told me about it, and it sounds brilliant. Yeah, it it he told me about it a couple of months ago when I got goosebumps listening to him talk about it. That's good, nice and supportive, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

Um, I'm telling you, dude, you've got to just pick a date. Pick a date.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:55

No, that's cool, because then that you know that like I like then the I like the term the trades left the station.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:00

You gotta fucking yeah, we've run into Bright and we had nothing, and we were like, right, we're making this in August. We told everyone we're making the film in August, uh, October to whatever we're making the film. Yeah, we told everyone. Yeah, and suddenly you are making it. Yeah, it's like it's not like we're making it at some point. We're like, actually, we're making it in October. Fuck, you gotta fucking get all the shit together. But then we did, and that's what you should do.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:22

No, you're right. I'm gonna do that spot on. Um, so I I'm gonna we're gonna should we wrap up late and let Paul get on with his yeah, no, no, thank you, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

I'm not doing anything, dude. I'm gonna go and watch a little bit of footy, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:36

Who's playing?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:39

Spain and um Belgium.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:41

Oh shit, what time's it? Oh, that nine o'clock kickoff.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

I don't know. Look now. I'm fucking so tired, man. It's so hot.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:52

I reckon Belgium are gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

It's on now.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

It's on now.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:55

It's on now, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Well, let's uh let's have the second half soon, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:01

Always been an absolute pleasure having you to uh chat with every house.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:06

Very kind of you guys, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:08

Thank you so much for coming on. I can't wait to put this one for people to listen to you. Like, like I said, I I think you're uh an innovator as a you know a director. Um uh and I just like your your I like your brutal, I like your brutal honesty, and I think there's not a lot of people in the industry that uh that are ballsy enough to have honesty.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

Um yeah, that's why I fucking skint, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:38

Exactly. So uh yeah, I just want to say thanks for coming on. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

I'm really grateful. Thank I'm I'm grateful to be asked because there are periods in your life when you want to be asked and no one does. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:51

Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you. It's been a good thing. All right, guys, listen, have a really great weekend, listen, Paul. Lots of love. I'll I'll send you to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:57

Send me the script, man. Email me the script.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:58

I'm going, I'm actually going to because I'm quite proud of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:00

So I'm going to say good, we should be. Um, all right. Take care. Have a good weekend, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:06

Listen to love, Paul.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:08

Bye bye. Bye, man. Bye, Paul. Cheers. Oh, no, that was incredible, Nick. Uh no, thank you for arranging that with Paul. That was fascinating. Really insight, an insight into a director, uh, an independent director who's also done uh what do you say commercial?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:22

Yeah, but he but he's he's he's he's so good. He's I mean you know, being around him. I've been on set with him on the John Charles Demenezes thing. Um his attention to detail, just I don't I just the freedom you get, you know. I I just think he's he's a director that actors should want to work with.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:50

You know? I don't know the answer to that. But um he's I think he's a director that actors should be like, fuck, I would love to work with Paul Andrew Williams.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Well his resume is built up in for me, because you know you're gonna fucking do some acting.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:15

Yeah, right? You're not gonna do posturing.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

Say again, what do you mean by posturing?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:20

Well, you're not just gonna like phone the performance in because he like you said, he needs to believe you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:27

And that's not by doing more acting, yeah. Sometimes by doing the opposite, but just like you said, finding the truth, finding the truth in in the moment, finding the truth in the script, finding the truth in the character, whatever that truth is.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:40

Yeah, it sounds like it gives the actors a lot of freedom as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:44

Which I suppose everyone wants, but yeah, exactly. But he also knows what he wants, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:49

Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. I think we've got some really cool guests coming up. Uh Rick Page, you know, our next one who's you know, DOP on Brooklyn 99 and um uh the office sort of spin-off, the American office spin-off, which is huge. Yeah, so that'd be really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:06

We've got we got we've got Rick coming next, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

Yeah, uh we've got Rick Page. Um, my gosh, we've got um I don't know if you want to say that Mark Marco. Uh we've got Marcio, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:16

Marcio Marcio, sorry. Yeah, we've got uh Marcio is an interesting one. Marcio is um Millie Bobby Brown's bodyguard. Um he's got a little bit more to him than that, though, isn't he? He has. He was also Mariah Carey's bodyguard for 15, I think maybe 15 years, but before that, Marcio was Brazilian jungle special forces.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

See, that's that's just incredible itself.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:40

But how does someone go from jungle special forces into the entertainment industry? You know, where so that's gonna be a great chat, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've got so much. I mean, we've got people, we've got you know, Rick Gomez has said yes, we just gotta lock him in, get a date in, uh, gotta speak to a couple of people later on, you know. But there's there's the with the light, we're lining them up, and I think it's it's an incredible you know, guest list coming on, and and it's just fitting him in. We've got Jake Letty, we're working with Tarantino down the line for his new book and Gross Bastards.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:10

And we've also got a couple of we've also got a couple of um people we can't mention at this point, just to get a bit of keep the public a bit excited about what's coming.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:20

Yeah, I'm really enjoying this collab and getting these people together. It's been high profile.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:25

A few high profile ones we can't mention at the minute, but stay tuned, folks.